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colin storey
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Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:04 am

I've been reading and watching with interest some American discussions on racing.
They believe there 17.5 stock rules need readjusting. They think there motors are to fast and expensive. 150us each. All hand wound. The other thing is batteries are out of control there.
They Are getting physically larger. Charging them at stupid rates to get the most power out of them. (Glad we are 1c).
With the c cells were limited in size. The Lippos are not the same restrictions.
They are talking that battery capacity should be limited like the old days.
They also believe this is hurting there sport big time on road. As again there stock class is the most expensive.
And it's the racers and manufacturers driving the more speed etc. They recon roar doesn't have big enough balls to stand up to the racers.
Maybe something to think about guys.
I think we have made the right decision for stock now. Do we take it the next step ?
By the way they are also talking mod and pro 12 to fast as well.
2s 13.5 faster than a 1s 4.5 in a 12th.
This is probably a good time to think about it and ponder it for next year's agm.


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gasman
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Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:08 am

I've seen some of the lipo's they are selling now......BIG!

Your right Colin i think we have moved sensibly with regards to stock, and superstock, although i think Mod has the right to stay where it is.
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Shagzternz1
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Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:19 am

Battery capping is a good idea for stock classes
Mod - Let them go wild :mrgreen:

If we are wanting to get more people into 12th perhaps looking at restrictions there isn't a bad idea ( I liked the idea you had a awhile back Colin ) ...but....All the old 12th racers will struggle to accept change in this area - look at the 8 minute debate :twisted:
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colin storey
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Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:37 am

We just about need a 17.5 blinky 12th. But I think it would be detrimental to pro 10.

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Scott 119
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Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:57 pm

I have been saying for years that battery capacity should be limited like when we had sub C cells. Because fuel is the limiting factor to power if you only have so much fuel to burn then your power output is limited. The problem is battery specs and labels in the RC industry are not correct many brands are over inflated and some like Gens Ace are true or under spec. So a control battery would be required and to get as low as 1500mAh you need to get some thing custom done in hard case. Then people will be pushing the batteries to low and we may see failures.

Next step is having a RPM limiter inline with the sensor cable to limit motor RPM.
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B.C.Ninja
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Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:17 am

OK so I'm a little confused on the whole battery capacity shindig that is being portrayed here, now from an electrical point of view where is the advantage of capacity alone, all this dictates is run time, currently in 21.5 Stock Touring I'm usually biffing in around the 1300-1700 mAH from a 5 min run with a 3 min warm up, so running a 1 zillion mAH LiPo isn't going to have any advantage at all purely because of capacity, therefore what the hell would a limit achieve, actually a larger capacity battery usually weighs more so therefore would be more of a disadvantage, now this is based on capacity alone, no other spec but capacity. Now Like Scott mentioned there is actually no (that I am aware of) International Standard for the testing and therefore labeling of a batteries capacity, so there is no way what so ever to compare apples with apples, full stop end of story, for some makes of batteries there is a common practice for the testing and therefore labeling of batteries, but there is no certification or International Standard dictating these methods.
Now the next thing is those stupid discharge rates stamped all over LiPo's, like seriously do the math on those 8000mAH discharging at 120C well thats just hogswash, thats a continuous discharge of 960 Amps and at a nominal 7.4 Volts thats a little over 7 kilo watts, well shit the bed sparky do you really think your electronics in your toy cars could handle anywhere near that sort of juice, ahhhhhhhhh nope.

To me the most important spec of a battery for Stock racing is the discharge curve, I want to know how long the "Hump Voltage" is going to last before I discharge down to the nominal voltage, then I need to see how stable that nominal voltage is and at what rate that voltage falls off, now by just buying some over exagerated spec junky super sonic lipo for its capacity, I am not at all going to know whether there is going to be any benefit at all in doing so because capacity don't mean diddly. You are better off doing the research and finding the battery with the most appropriate discharge curve for your load, now generally speaking you may find that the larger capacity LiPos have longer "Hump Voltage" periods within the curve, but this is not a given.

If you try and regulate the capacity of the LiPo's for stock you are just going to increase the costs for a portion of the racers, due to the retarded 1C charge rule (I say retarded because it is wayyyyyyyyy outdated but thats another rant) it would take around an hour to recharge a lipo from a run in stock if you restricted the capacity to a low value like 1500-2000 mAH, most newer racers run 2 runs from the one lipo because you can, they wouldn't be able to do so if the size was restricted, also technically speaking you can recharge a higher capacity battery faster at 1C than a lower capacity one (reason why 1C charge rule is dumb you can use higher current because one battery says its bigger on the sticker???????) all in all battery size restrictions would do nothing but increase costs to racers, more lipos required end of story.

Now the super dooper high current charging and lipo performance, yeah if you want to replace lipos on a yearly basis go ahead, what high current charging at over 20 Amps does is that it can reduce the internal resistance of the LiPo for a period of time, did you also know that if you warm your LiPo's to around 35deg you can achieve the same thing, I'll usually give my LiPo's a good slam at 12 Amps which is the max of my charger to warm em up a bit, it does increase my punch slightly but for maybe a lap, so in stock it may help me get passed that first corner of doom, otherwise pfffffft ideally I charge at 12 Amps because for the last 3 years I have run the same 2 lipos for two classes, yep 2 lipos, 2 6200 mAH lipos for both stock and Superstock on a constant cycle, I purchased a SkyRC charger for around 120 bucks so I could charge my LiPos with 1/2 an hour so I only needed 2 lipos, one per class, the amount of people I see witha gazillion LiPos, like seriously I have two............

Now if we all got off this uneducated bandwagon of spending bloody money on stock and just let the guys that run stock run bloody stock and stop confusing them with absolute tripe that will only make a difference for the top 0.0035% of racers worldwide, we may finally get a class free of bullshit. Now if you think you have to spend oodles upon oodles of money to be competetive then go right ahead, join the fanboys with all the latest gears, the matching Tee's and Flexfit hats, labelled underwear and an obsession of spending money and an ever present obsession with craft beer and be no better off than you are now, or go with the status quo running what they have or can afford, seek the right advice from the right people and afford what will complement your driving ability, we must remember that the articles we read regarding whats happenning in the states etc etc would only effect maybe a handful of guys here, and TBH you won't beat em no matter how much money you spend, because they are usually spending time rather than money on their cars :mrgreen: (y)

At the end of the day it is your choice and your choice alone to spend money on stack racing, my advice is Don't Believe the Hype!!!

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gasman
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Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:08 am

UMmmmmmmm
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Scott 119
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Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:28 am

OK so I'm a little confused on the whole battery capacity shindig that is being portrayed here, now from an electrical point of view where is the advantage of capacity alone, all this dictates is run time, currently in 21.5 Stock Touring I'm usually biffing in around the 1300-1700 mAH from a 5 min run with a 3 min warm up, so running a 1 zillion mAH LiPo isn't going to have any advantage at all purely because of capacity, therefore what the hell would a limit achieve, actually a larger capacity battery usually weighs more so therefore would be more of a disadvantage, now this is based on capacity alone, no other spec but capacity. Now Like Scott mentioned there is actually no (that I am aware of) International Standard for the testing and therefore labeling of a batteries capacity, so there is no way what so ever to compare apples with apples, full stop end of story, for some makes of batteries there is a common practice for the testing and therefore labeling of batteries, but there is no certification or International Standard dictating these methods.
Now the next thing is those stupid discharge rates stamped all over LiPo's, like seriously do the math on those 8000mAH discharging at 120C well thats just hogswash, thats a continuous discharge of 960 Amps and at a nominal 7.4 Volts thats a little over 7 kilo watts, well shit the bed sparky do you really think your electronics in your toy cars could handle anywhere near that sort of juice, ahhhhhhhhh nope.
The capacity limits the power only due to the available watt hours in the battery due to the lower capacity. So the racer would need to manage gearing and timing to make sure they make run time this making it a battle of efficiency not shear power.

Think of it as drag racing with a allocated amount of fuel per run, fuel limits power if you can't pour more fuel in you can't extract the full power from the engine.
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colin storey
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Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:19 am

Anyway ifmar has taken a step back on the 2s 12th for now.

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kartyboy94
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Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:33 am

Scott 119 wrote:
OK so I'm a little confused on the whole battery capacity shindig that is being portrayed here, now from an electrical point of view where is the advantage of capacity alone, all this dictates is run time, currently in 21.5 Stock Touring I'm usually biffing in around the 1300-1700 mAH from a 5 min run with a 3 min warm up, so running a 1 zillion mAH LiPo isn't going to have any advantage at all purely because of capacity, therefore what the hell would a limit achieve, actually a larger capacity battery usually weighs more so therefore would be more of a disadvantage, now this is based on capacity alone, no other spec but capacity. Now Like Scott mentioned there is actually no (that I am aware of) International Standard for the testing and therefore labeling of a batteries capacity, so there is no way what so ever to compare apples with apples, full stop end of story, for some makes of batteries there is a common practice for the testing and therefore labeling of batteries, but there is no certification or International Standard dictating these methods.
Now the next thing is those stupid discharge rates stamped all over LiPo's, like seriously do the math on those 8000mAH discharging at 120C well thats just hogswash, thats a continuous discharge of 960 Amps and at a nominal 7.4 Volts thats a little over 7 kilo watts, well shit the bed sparky do you really think your electronics in your toy cars could handle anywhere near that sort of juice, ahhhhhhhhh nope.
The capacity limits the power only due to the available watt hours in the battery due to the lower capacity. So the racer would need to manage gearing and timing to make sure they make run time this making it a battle of efficiency not shear power.

Think of it as drag racing with a allocated amount of fuel per run, fuel limits power if you can't pour more fuel in you can't extract the full power from the engine.
And so making it even more of a confusing black art for newbies (who aren't interested in chasing that last 3 seconds ofvrunntime and .00009625s a lap) to get into the sport.

Instead of buying a car and a battery and racing, they've now got to have the right motor, andvthe right battery, and the right gearing TO EVEN FINISH A RACE!!!

furthermore, if they want to practice they need 3-4 batteries to make it worthwhile, instead of being able to take one decent capacity pack and go and cut laps for half an hour.


The mentality needs to shift, to helping the beginner, making it less technical for the non technically minded to get into the sport.

The fast guys will be the fast guys regardless of the rules!
The quick guys will be quick regardless of what they're driving! (Within reason)

Here's an idea:

How about thinking about the 80% of racers who DONT go to nationals and just want to race, and generate rules to make racing attractive to new racers and not a downright mindF$*K

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Damon S
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Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:55 am

Maybe we need to canvas the stock racers at clubs to find out why they actually run stock, is it the speed of the cars or is it the cost etc etc.

Once we have a better idea of WHY the majority of people run stock we might have a better shot at helping those people who run it.

I have never run stock TC and don't intend to ever (too expensive lol) but I have watched it for long enough to have an opinion I think.

Once upon a time we had limited batteries in stock, but it was a single battery (tamiya sticks), and I believe it was put in place because of people spending ridiculous amounts on batteries to run competitively in stock before the single battery rule, which seems to be where we are at again.
Capacity limit would be almost impossible to police, I would think the easiest way would be spec lipo, but then I don't think we have the luxury of spec'ing a single lipo battery that will be available for say 5+ years like we did with the tamiya stick packs, and either way (limiting mAH or spec lipo) would increase cost to racers.

So without limiting the batteries we have 2 maybe 3 other choices (talking about stock TC mostly but some will apply to say pro12), decrease cell count, increase motor winds, decrease motor size (ie 380 equivalent size), or limit FDR, or a combo of these.


But like I said first we need more actual info from the majority of stock racers (probably should exclude the top few racers) before we have any idea if there is even a problem that needs to be dealt with. (in stock TC)

Ian R
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Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:36 pm

Just remember when you start changing the rules like this you are making it more expensive for those already racing in the class.
You have already made my 8 year old buy a new motor!
Now there is talk about having control tires and not using my hand me downs, and now you want him to replace his old batteries that owe me nothing with new ones that will be half as good!
Makes giving up on road and only racing off road look like a good idea.

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Scott 119
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Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:40 pm

And so making it even more of a confusing black art for newbies (who aren't interested in chasing that last 3 seconds ofvrunntime and .00009625s a lap) to get into the sport.

Instead of buying a car and a battery and racing, they've now got to have the right motor, andvthe right battery, and the right gearing TO EVEN FINISH A RACE!!!

furthermore, if they want to practice they need 3-4 batteries to make it worthwhile, instead of being able to take one decent capacity pack and go and cut laps for half an hour.


The mentality needs to shift, to helping the beginner, making it less technical for the non technically minded to get into the sport.

The fast guys will be the fast guys regardless of the rules!
The quick guys will be quick regardless of what they're driving! (Within reason)

Here's an idea:

How about thinking about the 80% of racers who DONT go to nationals and just want to race, and generate rules to make racing attractive to new racers and not a downright mindF$*K
The class had more numbers when batteries were limited probably before you started racing tho.

I am really not fussed I don't race stock if everything was open there would be less arguments and maybe more people racing.

Beginners can always race mini.
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Dirt Racer
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Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:27 pm

Ian R wrote:Just remember when you start changing the rules like this you are making it more expensive for those already racing in the class.
You have already made my 8 year old buy a new motor!
Now there is talk about having control tires and not using my hand me downs, and now you want him to replace his old batteries that owe me nothing with new ones that will be half as good!
Makes giving up on road and only racing off road look like a good idea.
I agree!
I find it quite interesting that so many people who don't race stock touring are coming up with ideas to change stock touring rules. :roll:
I race stock touring because I had an old touring car just sitting around when I upgraded my superstock car. I like having the extra stock touring car to race at our once a month raceday because it gives me more track time. And lastly I also like racing it with my son.

At our club we try to stick to the national rules so that people who go to big events are used to the rules when racing at the events. Since I do try to attend the odd big meeting, I do adhere to the current rules. Because I'm not always able to charge batteries at the track, I manage my batteries to make sure I can do 3 races per car without having to charge batteries. Limiting the battery sizes will really have an impact on my decision to race stock touring as I can't justify buying 3 more small batteries for each of me and my son's cars. Personally I'm not all that convinced that the bigger batteries are that much better as they do get heavier the bigger they get. Just my opinion though. I'm not saying the sport needs to be held back so that I can be happy either. If it is decided that the batteries need to be limited to some ridiculous value then the sport is welcome to grow without me.

Basically I think we should give the new motor rule a fair go before changing the rules even more. And if batteries are limited, then go for something sensible like 5000mah.
As always, just my 2 cents.

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B.C.Ninja
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Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:10 pm

OK so maybe I didn't make my reply simple enough so lets have a look at a few things,

So firstly the ole spec batts from donkeys ago, now this was purely because back in the dark ages of running NiCads and NiMH stick packs there was a considerable disadvantage by using a basic pack due to its limited capacity, so to get that required edge you did have to purchase excessively priced batts, so yes in this case limiting the battery worked well, BUT with LiPo technology pretty much and basic hardcase on the market will have oodles upon oodles of capacity for a run,yes you could get all technical and start looking at how the addition of a flux capacitor could enhance the neutron displacement of the hexagonal matrix joining time and matter together, but lets face it for most guys out there any lipo will suffice for Stock Touring, now I have said it before and please correct me if I'm wrong but at the 2015 onroad nationals in wellies I do believe that the second place winner in Stock Touring was won by someone running LPB lipos, no not your gazillion dollar super dooper lipo but a lipo that Frankton Models retails for under 70 bucks, now this driver got second only to a driver that could quite frankly biff some wheels on a mouse powered shoe box and still win, so please please please this issue of having to spend money to be competetive needs to stop as it is simply NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!

Now the ole Woodrow Wilson quote, now I was going to reply back with my usual smartass remarks and post some silly meme that would most likely brighten someones day but lets be honest, this speech by Mr Wilson was a speech used to spur on Americas direction during the industrial revolution, now it would happen to be slightly misused in this context due to the basis of the speech pertaining to the lack of forward direction of the country and the various councils that controlled the various technological factions having no forward thought and making hugely misguided decisions, just look at the whoo haa between Edisson and Tesla regarding DC and AC for power distribution, now the way I liken this quote to the current situation is that we have a misguided council still being coerced by a small idea pool without to much foresight and correct education and trying to make changes to a system without proper consultation with the populous effected ie the drivers, as a few people have noted on this thread it seems disturbing that soo many that do not race stock are biffing their two cents into the ring.

Now yes we do have a spec motor now, a choice that I personally find utterly pointless and I will gladly discuss the reasons for this in person to anyone that wants my view on this but it is what it is and TBH will not change a thing, I only hope that some info gets posted up pertaining to gearing and timing of this motor before we get too many newbies with a smoking habit......

So all in all there seems to be somewhat of a want to restrict the hell out of stock touring yet I am yet to see a valid argument based on FACTS that support some of the absolute malarky that is being proposed, now we are not the states, we are not Aussie, we are New Zealand, the majority of racers want to go out all grass roots style and have a lash with some mates with some toy cars, yes there is a small percentage of the top guys that will spend the money and will spend more time and will most likely win, well good on them, but there is a shite load more of us that really should not be getting all caught up in the hype and actually be concentrating on the competition around us currently and looking towards advancing up the ranks via skill not cash, as it is only skill that will allow this to happen.

So my final statement is the issue with cheque book racing and I lay down a challenge, is there anyone out there that can honestly say that driver X beat them in a stock touring race solely because they had spent more money than them, there lies the challenge, untill then I will scour the interdweebs for some famous quotes that I can misplace within the forums

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